In PWMania’s latest exclusive interview, Joseph Sawyer (@JoeGacy) sits down with Scott Mitchell (@scott44mitchell), and opens up about his time in the WWE competing under the name Joe Gacy. This included his time in NXT, forming The Schism, the Wyatt Sicks, Bray Wyatt, the Halloween Horror Nights haunted house at Universal Studios, where things began to go wrong, his favorite moments, his WWE release, and much more. Watch the nearly one-hour-long interview below in its entirety.
What did your time in NXT mean to you?
“Well, you know, getting there, it was kind of one of those things where I always wanted to get hired, but never thought I would, I hoped. But I kind of looked at myself as the guy who wasn’t supposed to make it. Given my background, where I came from, the style of wrestling I used to be involved in. I think maybe ten years ago, if somebody were to say that Joe Gacy’s going to get signed by WWE, I think people would have rolled their eyes, like oh, yeah, okay, whatever. It was one of those things where people didn’t fully believe I was going to get there. There were times when I felt the same. But I just tried to keep pushing on and hoped something would come out of it. Getting there was a huge accomplishment in itself for me. For years, I wanted to get hired, signed, and not knowing if it was going to happen or not, once it finally did, it was such a feeling, such an accomplishment. I loved my time in NXT. I enjoyed it. Being at the Performance Center and working with all of the great coaches and producers, working under Shawn Michaels, and having a lot of friends who were there as well, was a good thing. When I started there, I knew half of the NXT roster already. It was very easy for me to integrate into it. For anyone else who may get hired, they don’t know anybody sometimes, so I’m sure that’s a whole hurdle in itself for them, to get to know everyone, get comfortable with everyone, and make relationships. For me, it was fairly easy to fit in with everyone. That was awesome. There were stressful times, but ultimately, I got to try a new character out later, when the Schism version of Joe Gacy came about. When NXT 2.0 started. For me, it was exciting to be able to sink my teeth into a character that has a plan; we have a TV show weekly to give little pieces every week. Before then, I didn’t have that outlet. Specifically, when I did Combat Zone Wrestling, I would have a show a month to give something. I’d try to film stuff for the internet, but I feel like back then the internet wasn’t what it is today. I feel like a lot of people didn’t pay attention that much. Instagram gets a lot of views, TikTok gets a lot of views. But we didn’t, like we had stuff like that, but I don’t think it was as big a deal as it is now. So, for me, it was the first time I had that kind of outlet to tell a story weekly, rather than coming up with something for this month and then next month continue the story, but it was a month away, so people may not have even remembered what happened last month because it was so long ago. So, that was exciting for me. With that stuff. NXT was a great time. I enjoyed my time there. Being there meant a lot. I got in wanting to be a part of that black and gold era. I did get to do two matches for that time period. But when they did NXT 2.0, I was excited for that too. So, it was a great time.”
In your time at the Performance Center, did you have anyone who really took you under their wing and helped to put together the Joe Gacy-character that we saw there?
“I think if anybody, Shawn Michaels had a huge hand in it, to be honest. It was his idea, essentially. He and I talked about and he kind of gave me his thoughts on it, what he saw it as, and we were kind of on the same page with that. I threw in my ideas as well. Other than Shawn, I was assigned a writer there who’s no longer a writer at NXT. A guy named Jim Smollman. He was, and I hit it off immediately. He was previously the owner of PROGRESS Wrestling. But his idea of the character was so in line with what I wanted it to be. So, we always bounced ideas back and forth about what it was, what it could be, and stuff like that. There were times when we would come up with an idea that may have crossed the line, and they shot it down. But we tried to push the envelope a little bit. As far as that character, yeah, it was a lot of me, Jim Smollman, Shawn Michaels, and very early on, when he was there, Dewey Foley was a writer, and he had a hand in the early development as well. I think those minds combined kind of created what eventually got on TV.”
The Schism was a ton of fun and was a fun callback to the Wyatt Family from 2013. What was it like to run this group and work with Ava and the Grizzled Young Veterans?
“It was amazing. The four of us at the time really looked out for each other, to be honest. We, and I’ll say the same thing later about my time with the Wyatt Sicks, but we at the time were like a family, but almost like an outcast of a family. Any time there was any group thing with NXT, the four would stick together but kind of be towards the side. I don’t know. I think GYV and I got a lot done quickly because of our histories with independent wrestling, and I was a huge fan of them before we started working together. There an incredible tag team, both good wrestlers. I learned a bit from them just by working with them. So that was great. And just seeing Ava/Simone get involved and do promo work. She lit up when she realized she had an opportunity to be a part of this and be a part of this type of character and group. It seemed like it was in her wheelhouse. She was very excited to be a little psychotic, which was awesome. So, honestly, a very great time. We had some ideas that didn’t exactly pan out. But that’s okay. I know GYV did ultimately leave the company. That did kind of shorten things. But I understand, and I do almost feel like Schism did run its course anyway. But, definitely no regrets. I think everything started on a shaky note, but I think ultimately we got to a great point with the group, and it was a great time. I think our culmination was our feud with Chase U, which led to the Stand & Deliver show in Los Angeles on Mania Weekend. That match, for me in the group of Schism, I think was my favorite angle and match that we got to do together, working with Chase U and them, which was a lot of fun.”
Fast forward to Wyatt Sicks. This was one of my favorite groups, which honored one of the absolute greatest minds to ever grace a professional wrestling ring, Bray Wyatt. You guys had absolutely one of the greatest debuts in WWE history. What went through your head as you were gearing up for the very cinematic and beautifully done debut?
“The build-up to it was a lot. There were a lot of conversations. We had a few meetings. Just the look alone, what we were going to look like, took a while to figure out. Once that was all said and done, they were trying to pick the perfect date for the debut, and they settled on June, and we were going to Corpus Christi for Raw. For a while, I almost didn’t believe it was going to happen until we got on the plane to go out. We flew to San Antonio, so when we were heading out to Corpus Christi, that’s when it started to feel real. The whole day, they tried to keep us hidden away from everyone as a surprise. But then we rehearsed it, everyone started seeing us and were like, ‘Oh, what’s going on?’ But that whole day for me was excitement up until the moment we were about to go out there. Then, everything kind of hit me. Not only was I getting called up to the main roster about to debut, but I was hoping that this thing we were doing was about to go flawlessly, because God forbid something went wrong and we’re screwed. I was nervous for that, but then just the weight of the actual moment of what we were about to do, and what we were doing. Honoring Bray Wyatt/Wyndham, and creating this new group to live on, for his ideas to live on. I think almost right before we were getting ready to go, I started feeling that weight. You could feel it in the air, in the back. Everyone was kind of feeling it but not saying it. That they’re feeling it, but it was just an atmosphere that’s hard to describe, but it was emotional. Somebody like me, who just happened to be picked to be a part of this, felt the emotion in the air. I couldn’t even imagine what was going through Taylor’s or Rowan’s heads leading up to getting ready to do this debut. It went off without a hitch. Everyone did a great job. Kudos to all the camera guys that day. They nailed it. Production, everything, it couldn’t have been better. I didn’t realize how much blood they were going to use until I watched it back. That was just blood all over the place. I love that. I didn’t expect that to be on TV that way. It was insane. Once it was said and done and we did it, it was such a, we took a breath, and we were like, ‘Alright, now we’re off to the races.’ So, yeah. It was an incredible moment that I’m always going to remember, no matter what I do in this business. It’s going to always be one of my top moments of all time, for sure.”
How influential was Bray Wyatt to your personal career?
“It’s funny. I know a lot of people always automatically kind of associate him and me, and him kind of. I don’t know if it’s because I’m a heavier set guy, long-haired, beard, and tattoos, or if it was because I was a bit of a darker character. But, I think, I don’t know, I never incorporated him on purpose into anything I did at the time, now I do. I think the only thing, as far as impacting my career, this isn’t a full-on fact, but more of an assumption on my end. There was a weird time in WWE when they released Bray, and he was out of the company for a little while. To me, it felt like they were positioning me to be this cult leader character. Vince (McMahon) had his hands in the gimmick at the time. It almost felt like to me that they were maybe lining me up to sort of take over that role. I don’t know that to be true; I just know that a lot of management on the main roster were starting to get very involved in what I was doing, and I didn’t see them do that with everybody on NXT. It almost felt like they were kind of courting me to take over some kind of role that was left open when he left. Also, they started asking me to cut promos in certain ways, be a little more sinister, and even down to the outfits they wanted me to wear. An early pitch was for me to wear the black button-up with white pants, and I immediately was like, ‘Guys, Wyndham was very much known early on to wear white pants. That’s too similar.’ They were kind of like, ‘okay.’ So, to me, it felt like they were kind of trying to duplicate it a little bit. I don’t know that to be true. It was just a feeling I had. As far as that, maybe on the booking end, they were attempting for me to do the Bray-type of stuff. But it was never my intention in any of my creative thoughts to ever try to duplicate anything he did. I think I never started to incorporate anything as far as Bray until we started doing the Wyatt Sicks. That’s when we started doing little homages to him and sometimes his moveset and things like that. Which is now partly why I do a version of the Sister Abigail as a finisher. I was a little hesitant; I didn’t know if it was something I wanted to do. The first show I debuted on, back on the independents, was Pro Wrestling Revolver, and honestly, I was a little up in the air with what my finisher was going to be. We had a moment where I teased it, and the crowd reacted to it. Then, when I did hit it, they reacted to it, and I was like, ‘Oh, okay, well, I guess they’re okay with me doing it, so I guess that’s what I’m going to do.’”
Wyatt Sicks accomplished so much in a short time, including a Halloween Horror Nights House. What did this house mean to you to walk through and see firsthand?
“First of all, I love horror movies as well. I’m a huge fan of Halloween Horror Nights. For years, I used to go all the time; I still do. That was never something I ever thought was feasible for me, my wrestling character, to be featured in a house at Halloween Horror Nights. That’s a bucket list thing that I never would have been like, ‘Yeah, one day I want to have a house at Halloween Horror Nights,’ and unbelievably it happened. It’s something I never expected. Yes, I never fully expected to get hired by the WWE, but that was still something in the realm of possibility. But I never thought having a house at Halloween Horror Nights was in the realm of possible. So, it’s just insane to me that I got to do that. We’re coming up on a year since it happened, and it still doesn’t even feel like it really happened. It’s still so surreal to me that it happened. It’s crazy but amazing at the same time… I was blown away. First of all, the people who put that house together, I can’t believe how much detail they put into that and how much work they put into it. I found out later that all of the actors were fans, which made it that much better. They were all so passionate. Especially the nights we went through there, I think they saw us and got really excited and really turned it on that night. Well, we went through there a couple of nights. But they saw us and really turned it on. Me, I loved every room. Of course, the Huskus room was my favorite. Just because it was really cool to see that. I did get to go through the house during the daytime with the lights on and stuff. I got to walk through it and see every little detail. There were so many little details and easter eggs in that house that it was nearly impossible to see everything on one walkthrough. Especially when the lights are going with the actors in there. It was just surreal to me. I think they did a great job. I think the team that put it together did a great job. I’m very thankful that everyone involved was very passionate about Wyndham and us and made that happen. That’s something that will probably never happen again. So to be able to be a part of that, I’m very grateful for that.”
While this may have been one of my favorite factions and teams in WWE, it seems like there was some stuff left on the table. Was there anything else you wanted to accomplish with the group?
“There was a lot. We had so many ideas. It’s probably too many to name, but I’ll try to get to some big ones. One big thing was the idea that we never wanted to duplicate the Firefly Fun House. But we though one good way to show our dynamic as a family, which, that was supposed to be the idea, that we were a chosen family who decided to stick together because we were lost, and we never got a chance to portray that on TV, like we never got to explain why I decided to join the group, or why Dexter Lumis decided to join the group, same with Nikki. One idea was kind of in the same vein as the Firefly Fun House, which would kind of be like a sitcom setting where we were living like a family, and had laugh tracks and ultimately would get weird at times, a little creepy. Kind of like, the best way we explained it in a pitch was kind of like the TV show, WandaVision. There were points like, laugh tracks, corny, sitcom stuff, and then it leads right into creepy, weird, what the hell did I just watch kind of stuff? That was kind of an early pitch that we had. Then, another big one for us was pitching, when we had our haunted house at Universal for Halloween Horror Nights. The opportunity was there for us to do something with it. And it was DIY, Gargano, and Tomasso, who really pitched to do something like at Universal Studios, where they show up, go through the house, try and find us, and then it happens that the whole group is in the house, and we scare them and end up fighting or something like that. That was another big one that I think was a missed opportunity for us to use and ultimately promote Halloween Horror Nights. That was something for us to do. I can sit here for hours and talk about some of the ideas we had. We really did have something every week. But those were two big ones. Another thing we were all pushing for us to individually develop a little bit more. Even where we got to the point when Taylor had to take some time off, we were pitching for us to at least have 30-second, 60-second vignettes where one week it’s just Dexter talking about why he’s in this family, and that’s all we needed for like 3-4 weeks. We could have had that with each of us. Just 30-60 seconds on the show. I think that could have just been a nice little connection with us and the audience, and elevate us just a little more, and make people care about us just a little more. But, you know. For one reason or another, they decided not to do anything like that. Those are just big things for me that we didn’t get to do. There’s a million others, but those are the big ones.”
Where would you say that everything kind of went wrong with the group after the hot start?
“I just think the problem, you can say a lot of things. But I think the very first misstep was the fact that they didn’t really give a few of us a chance to fully develop on our own. To the point where, listen, Taylor/Bo is the centerpiece, he is. There’s no getting around that. Absolutely, he is. He should be. But there was a point where he had to take some time off. And had creative let us develop a little bit more on our own before that. I believe we could have carried on while he was taking time off. I just don’t think because we had that time to develop ourselves individually that the creative team thought we could carry that team on our own, weekly. Which, you know, I’m not one to say we should or shouldn’t have. I do think we should have. We should have continued. If they didn’t think we should be involved in an angle. We could have easily done vignettes like I was saying, where we start explaining ourselves a little bit, so people could start connecting to us. And we also could have slowly gotten involved in another angle, and being babyfaces, we could have, you know. Around that time, we were feuding with Karrion Kross and the group. We could have easily done a few weeks with them to the point where there’s a point where the team just decimates us, we’re laid out, and if that’s the time Taylor’s ready to come back, lights on, lights out, Howdy’s back. He can lay them out. I think it could have been a good moment for a return, and I think that could have just elevated us more. In that time, we developed, and then we had Howdy come back in a big moment, just create a new moment. It could have easily been built as a big moment, just as big a moment as the debut was, if you did it right. I just don’t think, honestly, I don’t think they saw us in that light. I think they saw us as pieces of the puzzle to the group led by Taylor. Which, to a degree, I understand. But at the same time, to make us successful, they should have let us all develop a little bit more. Just so we could all become as important to the group as obviously Taylor was. I just think that was the first misstep, in my opinion.”
Did you have a favorite moment of yours in your time with the WWE, whether in NXT or with the Wyatt Sicks?
“There are a few. That SummerSlam match, the TLC match, was a huge moment for me. New Jersey is where I grew up. To me, that was amazing to do that show there. Because of that, I was trying to get Dexter to be the one to climb the ladder, because I’m deathly afraid of heights. But he said, ‘No, you’re from Jersey, you have to do it.’ And I said, ‘Ugh, okay.’ So that moment of climbing up the ladder in front of that audience in that stadium is something I’ll never forget. 2012 or 2013, whatever year WrestleMania was in that stadium, it was John Cena and The Rock, that was my first taste of Mania week. I did CZW, I believe on WrestleCon or something. It was my first taste of a real Mania week. I didn’t have money; I didn’t have enough to buy a ticket to go to WrestleMania, so I just kind of stood outside that stadium wanting to go to the show, but couldn’t afford to. To be able to go back to that arena/stadium and have a moment like that, it’s insane to me. I had a lot of friends and family in the audience, too, and that was incredible. That was a moment I’ll never forget. To me, I’ll also put up our entrance at Clash At Paris, the fans singing along to our entrance song, gives me goosebumps every time I think about it. I did have a lot of good memories. But those two are the two I’ll always come back to think about. Winning the tag titles, of course, something I never expected to happen. So, a lot of good things to remember.”
Unfortunately, you, along with the rest of the Wyatt Sicks, were released from the WWE. What went through your mind when you found this out?
“It was a series of events. I do feel like I had a little bit of a feeling before it happened. Just the weeks leading up to that, things seemed different; plans were changing for us, almost immediately. For us to lose the blow-off match with MFT made me be like, ‘Something is going on.’ I’m not one to complain about wins and losses. But, as a babyface team, we needed that win in my opinion, because they kept beating us. To learn that they were winning, I was like, ‘Okay, something is going on. Either some of us are about to not be here anymore, or they’re going to split the group up.’ Looking back, I can see the trajectory of what was going on. But in the moment I just had doubt. Like, this could be happening, or maybe I’m thinking too much into it. I don’t know. But I’ll be 100% honest, when I finally had the phone call, I wasn’t that mad about it. To be honest with you, I wasn’t very happy with the direction of things with the group, as far as the booking, creative, and they kept not using ideas, which is fine. But, I just felt like if you had ideas, and they kept not doing much with you. Like, I didn’t know what the disconnect was between us and creative. Like, I didn’t know. I was almost at the point where my deal was for another year; it was supposed to be until June of 2027, but I had that internal debate of if this goes on for another year like this, I don’t know if I want to stay here, to be honest. Had I been with the company still, and things were going how they were, and I made it to June 2027, even if they wanted to offer me a new deal, I don’t know if I could say I’d absolutely sign it or not. So, I don’t know. I was already kind of in that mindset of having a foot out the door a little bit. Having that conversation is obviously a little scary because you’re stepping into the unknown. For me, I think that was the worst part of it. Preparing myself for, I don’t know what’s out there for me at this point. But, in a sense, it was a bit of a relief to be honest. After a couple of days of trying to grasp it and realize this is what’s happening now, I started to get excited for what’s next. Thinking about it, I’m like, well, I could go out and do the indies, I could work for another major company. The possibilities are endless. I started getting really excited, and I was like, I don’t want to be where I’m not wanted. So, why be upset about it? To me, I started getting excited about stepping away from the company.”
